New Guy with V-Max and slow start issues....

[MBreinin]

This is my first post. My name is Mike and I recently purchased an '85 V-Max locally. I am now 37 and I am buying the bikes I wanted when I was 15. :biglaugh: I started with the RZ350 and then when it was too painful to ride for any significant distance, I added the V-Max.

Moving on. I got this V-Max locally and for a very good price. It is not 100% stock. It has K&Ns (or a K&N, I have not checked), it used to have aftermarket exhaust, it has apparently had some jetting changes and it also, apparently, has some different cams in it. All of this info came from the former owner, who was told by the guy HE got it from.

The problem I am having is that it is a real PITA to start. It has a new starter and a new battery and still, it starts very slowly and it drags. It feels like the motor has more compression. Former owner pointed to the cams as the source for the slow starting.

Now, I know I am opening Pandora's Box here. I haven't run a compression test and I have only had a chance to ride the bike for any length of time once. I rode it for about an hour yesterday. I have never owned a V-Max or ridden one. It is a quick bike for sure, but I have no point of reference. I will say this, it is not as scary to ride as my modded RZ, which has a much more intense powerband from 6-10k due to it being an all or nothing two stroker. The V-Max feels like a V-8...very torquey with a good linear pull and a strong rush above 6k.

My question is, does anyone think a set of aftermarket cams would create more cranking compression? I would think that a set of cams with longer duration and more lift would actually decrease cranking compression as they would hang the valves open longer. Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

It WILL start, but it is not a confidence inspiring experience getting it to fire up. I am glad it is not a daily rider. It doesn't have a particularly lumpy idle and it is pretty quiet with a set of stock pipes on it now.

Any ideas? Sorry for the long first post!

Mike

 

[4gasem]

Welcome!

Nothing more than the dreaded slow crank issue I'm sure...

Let me see what I can pull up for you...

Ok here ya go! http://vmaxoutlaw.com/tech/crimp.htm

Check out there whole site at www.vmaxoutlaw.com


Also look into getting a new Odyssey or Panasonic AGM battery...

 

[maleko89]

This is my first post. My name is Mike and I recently purchased an '85 V-Max locally. I am now 37 and I am buying the bikes I wanted when I was 15. :biglaugh: I started with the RZ350 and then when it was too painful to ride for any significant distance, I added the V-Max.

Moving on. I got this V-Max locally and for a very good price. It is not 100% stock. It has K&Ns (or a K&N, I have not checked), it used to have aftermarket exhaust, it has apparently had some jetting changes and it also, apparently, has some different cams in it. All of this info came from the former owner, who was told by the guy HE got it from.

The problem I am having is that it is a real PITA to start. It has a new starter and a new battery and still, it starts very slowly and it drags. It feels like the motor has more compression. Former owner pointed to the cams as the source for the slow starting.

Now, I know I am opening Pandora's Box here. I haven't run a compression test and I have only had a chance to ride the bike for any length of time once. I rode it for about an hour yesterday. I have never owned a V-Max or ridden one. It is a quick bike for sure, but I have no point of reference. I will say this, it is not as scary to ride as my modded RZ, which has a much more intense powerband from 6-10k due to it being an all or nothing two stroker. The V-Max feels like a V-8...very torquey with a good linear pull and a strong rush above 6k.

My question is, does anyone think a set of aftermarket cams would create more cranking compression? I would think that a set of cams with longer duration and more lift would actually decrease cranking compression as they would hang the valves open longer. Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

It WILL start, but it is not a confidence inspiring experience getting it to fire up. I am glad it is not a daily rider. It doesn't have a particularly lumpy idle and it is pretty quiet with a set of stock pipes on it now.

Any ideas? Sorry for the long first post!

Mike

Mike, first off welcome to the forum!

First, let's cover the cold starting. Have you checked to see what your charging voltage is? Use a multimeter and with the bike running see what the voltage is across the battery terminals. Since it's an '85 I'm betting the stator to rectifier/regulator connections are dirty. This causes heat and eventually may damage either component. The early model Vmax uses a different r/r so look and see if yours has heat fins on it. The late model rectifier has much better charging. It's probably a case where your battery isn't charging sufficiently when riding. Also, check/clean all of your grounds. There is a frame ground on the right side and is visible just behind the air box on the frame. You'll have to remove the seat to see it. The other is an engine ground and is just to the left of your oil filler cap. To troubleshoot your charging system I recommend doing the above and then doing the troubleshooting diagram. It's in the electrics section of this forum.

Remove the top cover.....is there an air box or do you see 4 K&N air filters?

As for the cams, I'm not sure how big of change of compression you'll see. The early models did have a different cam but don't think you would notice any difference. I would try to do a compression test....a leak down test would be even better. With properly running charging system the starter should have no problems with high compression engines. A buddy's engine has over 205 psi each cylinder and his stock 4 pole starter does fine.

When you turn the key on do you hear clicks (fuel pump) and a 2 stage whine? If no whine then your bike isn't running vboost...which makes it very cold blooded and most likely will need choke longer.

No need to apologize for length of post or for any reason! We're hear to help.

Mark
#1098

 

[Rusty McNeil]

More aggresive cams with more overlap would decrease compression relative to cams with less overlap. Unless maybe they were way advanced in timing.

Every thing Mark said is good to look at, also you can do this;


If your charging voltage is good it should be around 13.6 or so.... higher is better. I have a kill switch on my headlight so charging at idle with the headlight off is around 14.1 I do this so I can run the fan in traffic jams without killing the battery.
Once you think it's run long enough be fully charged kill it and with a meter on the battery crank it and see how low the voltage dips. If it goes below 10volts or so your battery is probably just shot.

Having an analog meter where you can see the neddle helps but some digitals also have an analog bar or a min-max memory you could use. If it's really staring that slow tho' a regualr digital may catch the dip before the bike has a chance ot start.

Another test is to run it till fully charged and then kill it, check the voltage and then keep rechecking it for a while.

A good battery will decay down to around 2.07-2.11 volts per cell or 12.42 to 12.66 but usually it's around the 2.08 range or 12.48

I've done this on mine occasionally and it takes about a day for the battery to drop to around that level and stabilize.

Something else is your brushes in your starter could be just worn out or just plain dirty since it's an '85. I've never had a starter off of a Vmax or seen the inside of one but guessing it's just like any other starter motor.
Try checking to verify voltage to the starter when cranking and if its seeing good voltage then maybe you have a starter problem.
The early bikes had 2 pole starters which are not as strong as the later model 4 pole starters.

Hope we are able to help!

Rusty

 

[MBreinin]

First of all, thanks for the help guys!

To answer some questions.

The battery is two weeks old. I put a multimeter on it yesterday after I had tried to start the bike and run the battery down a bit and it was coming back 12.7 volts. I will check it and see what it is pulling when the bike is running.

The starter is also nearly new, not an original '85 component.

When keying on I definitely hear the fuel pump clicking. After the ride yesterday it was cycling much quicker than before. I will have to check tonight to make sure the V-Boost solenoids are also going through their cycle when I turn the key on. I think the V-Boost is functional as the bike certainly makes alot more power once the 6k threshold is crossed.

When removing the air cover I see a black plate below there, which I assume is the top of an airbox. I do not see four individual K&Ns. Perhaps I just have a drop in K&N. I will say that the bike is pretty damn quiet, I don't hear an enormous amount of induction roar, so I think I still have an airbox. The stock exhaust is also very quiet, that needs to be remedied! My RZ is at least twice as loud as the V-max. Of course, it is a two stroke hellion with aftermarket chambers and induction.

I knew this would be an electrical issue! I hate electrical issues! Where is the Rectifier/Regulator located? I will look at that as well. I will also read those links posted. I am sure we can get to the bottom of this.

Anyone know a good V-Max mechanic in the New Orleans area? I would really like to take the bike to a pro who could go over it help me get it tuned appropriately. I think it could use some tuning.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[maleko89]

The r/r is behind the left passenger foot peg. Just remove the 4-5 bolts including the one for the muffler. It may take a bit of pulling but it'll come.

Mark
#1098

 

[MBreinin]

I ordered one of those Odyssey batteries and I will also due the "crimp fix" mod when I change the battery.

Will also check out the R/R as well.

I will report my results!

Mike

 

[Rusty McNeil]

That passenger footpeg brakcet that has to come off on the left side to get to the R/R is also a structurual frame member.

Not a big deal or anything but you want to make sure the dowel pins line up good before tightening it down.

 

[4gasem]

I ordered one of those Odyssey batteries and I will also due the "crimp fix" mod when I change the battery.

Will also check out the R/R as well.

I will report my results!

Mike

You won't be disappointed! :thumbs up:

 

[MBreinin]

Installed the Odyssey tonight and noticed that the "crimp mod" had already been done. The starter turned more quickly and with more confidence, but it is still very slow. Bike started up pretty easily but I am still kind of annoyed and I don't know where to look now.

I guess I should check out the R/R next.

Mike

 

[COP RUNNER]

FULLY CHARGE YOUR BATTERY & TAKE JUMPER CABLES, & RUN THEM RIGHT FROM YOUR BATTERY TO THE STARTER, HOOK THE GROUND JUMPER TO A STARTER BOLT, AND HOOK THE POSITIVE SIDE TO THE STARTER WERE THE POSITIVE CABLE GOES,MAKE SURE THEY HAVE GOOD CONNECTIONS, YOU CAN LEAVE ALL THE STOCK CABLES IN PLACE, IF IT CRANKS FAST YOU HAVE A BAD CONNECTION OR A BAD CABLE !!! IF IT CRANKS SLOW YOU JUST ELIMINATED THE BATTERY & THE CONNECTIONS, SO IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A BAD STARTER, OR A TON OF COMPRESSION OR THE IGNITION TIMING IS WAY ADVANCED FOR SOME REASON !!!

 

[4gasem]

Installed the Odyssey tonight and noticed that the "crimp mod" had already been done. The starter turned more quickly and with more confidence, but it is still very slow. Bike started up pretty easily but I am still kind of annoyed and I don't know where to look now.

I guess I should check out the R/R next.

Mike

Is it a 4 pole starter or a 2 pole starter? New design is 4 pole and is better...:thumbs up:

 

[COP RUNNER]

WHAT EVER HAPPENED ?

 

[MBreinin]

I put in the Odyssey and it helped. The bike has never failed to start and now I know its starting habits, so I can pretty much predict when it will fire. However, it is still slow. There is some kind of serious issue with the starter, starter clutch or something else for sure. However, the bike starts and it runs like a scalded dog, so I am not going to sink time and money into chasing it. I will try a new R/R when I get a chance though.

Mike

 

[Robbarrie]

When you do the r/r job - you may want to consider the R1 upgrade. I was reading the other day, it makes big difference over the stock Vmax one.
Good luck with it.

 

[Bill Seward]

I've posted a few things here about my experiences with my '85's charging. Get an updated R/R unit, and solder all 3 connections between the stator and the R/R. The newer R/R units have a ground wire, and do not depend on the footpeg mount being a major connection in the system... That's really important!

The "crimp fix" seems a waste of time - IF you run the red and black wires from the new style or aftermarket unit DIRECTLY to the battery. This eliminateds the need for the pain in the ass wire stripping, soldering and re-taping needed to do the "Crimp Fix".
There are a lot of 22 year old connections in that old Max of yours - I'd be willing to bet that somewhere else in that harness, there is a bad connection with a lot of resistance just dying to lower your charging voltage, and amperage. If you extend the red and black wires on the replacement R/R unit -SOLDER THEM- and attach proper connectors so you can simply put them behind the battery cable nuts, you're gonna be another satisfied customer.

Good bet it's the R/R unit, if it's original. Even if it is a replacement, original equipment style R/R, I'd get it out of there if you can afford it. The newer ones, and the aftermarket ones, have a generous amount of finning on them to cool the unit. OEM has none, and they DO get hot!

I understand '96 and up stock parts are upgraded - may be wrong on the exact year. I put an electrex unit in mine, and there are many other ones that fit - R1 unit sonds like a great idea.

I had the slow start problem for TWENTY ONE years, till I spent about $65.00 and fixed it in less than an hour. I was absolutely amazed at the difference, and my Max charges 14.5 volts at idle. (Stays at 14.5 throughout the RPM range, so no overcharging problems)

IMHO, this is the definitive fix for this problem.
Good luck. Message me if you need any more advice, or help.

 

[eatatjoz]

Just for reference...
I pulled my starter apart and cleaned everything after having no luck with the battery/rectifier/crimp solutions.

There was brush dust everywhere. The simple cleaning of twenty one years of gunk put my max back on the quick start. It's worth a try, and it costs about three bucks worth of carb cleaner.

 

[Bill Seward]

If you run a heavy gauge wire directly battery to starter, and it still cranks slow, it's likely you've got a bad (or more likely, dirty with bad brushes) starter.
However, keep in mind that the starter needs a good ground as well as a good power supply connection. It grounds through the bolts that hold it onto the engine, and the motor block is aluminum.
First-before tearing into the starter motor, have a look at the cleanliness of the mounting points for the starter. Unfortunately, that starter's gotta come off to check this... Clean everything up, and try again, or, you may be able to determine a bad ground by getting a bit of the starter motor down to bare metal, and run a wire-again, a heavy one- back to battery negative terminal, or a good ground on the frame. Really be sure you've got a good ground. If this fails, go into the starter, and you'll likely find things all dirty in there. After all this work, I'd get the starter rebuild kit, and put new brushes, AND BEARINGS in the motor. It's a pain in the ass to get the starter off, so I'd for sure fix everything-if it needs it or not! If you're nervous about dismantling a starter motor - EBay has them listed for reasonable prices. Figure the cost of a rebiuld kit, and the fact that the new starter (probably a rebuild) has a freshly turned commutator on the armature, as well as the brushes and bearings new. The rebuild will cost maybe $100.00 (or less) more than a pile of parts you have to install yourself. May be a better option......

FWIW - I got 65,000 miles out of my starter. This was years before I replaced the R/R, and after a few months, it started cranking slow again. Now, at 120,000 miles, with a new R/R unit-things work fine

 

[jfeagins]

If you remove that starter, don't forget to 'tweak' the little positioning tabs of the brush plate so that they contact the outside starter case with more pressure when you reassemble it.

I saw this demonstrated in a picture posted elsewhere here in the forums someplace. I think someone was showing a fix whereby he soldered a tiny ground wire to go between the brush plate and connect over to the starter case.

Anyway, my 85 had serious problems restarting only after riding - it always seemed to start fine while cold. Installing a new battery helped for a few months, then problems starting came back. I first only cleaned the brake dust and re-lubed the two bearings as best I could, reassembled and all was GREAT - for about 11 months. Then it began slow starting while warmed up again. This last time I had it off, I tweaked those brush contact tabs and the fix has held much longer with absolutely no signs of slowing down again.

Keep us posted on what works if you have the problem again and end up removing that starter.