CNN lately.. Canadian perspective

[kaboom]

I don't understand this attempt to create a "Utopia".......

Where everyone is equal, and happy, and has free medical care, and housing, and it's all peace love and sunshine....sit around smoke some weed....bunch of damn hippies.......

I find it amazing that people still think this way......

I go out and wrap myself around a guard rail at 75mph on my Vmax.....

Why should YOU pay for that???

Why should MY lifestyle choices affect you????Some idiot gets stoned and thinks he can fly.....and you want me to pay to put him back together when gravity and concrete conspire to prove him wrong....NO WAY.....

Instead of trying to drag other folks down, and take away money they have earned to pay for someone else, how about these folks find away to get what they need for themselves......
Oh wait......they'll just STEAL it from the rest of us.....Why should I try to get ahead.....why should I try to get a better job......Everything gets paid for anyway so who cares......

I have been without insurance, it adds up quick, so you go out and look for a better job, with better pay and benefits......they are out there.....go FIND them....Go learn something....make yourself attractive to the employer that offers what you want......

I know it works because I have done it......I am not a genius, I am not from a "connected" family.....I have no inheritance.....

But I made some good choices along with my bad ones......

If I have to start paying MORE money to support the fucking drunk, lazy, drug addled, oh woe is me, group......

I'll start the fucking revolution myself......

 

[kaboom]

:clapping: I'm in the military, I'm also a medic. I am my own health care. lol But really, I write my own prescriptions, referrals, appointments, etc. Then again, I rarely get sick. I'm not the normal case, but the military does have good health care. We pay dearly for it, though. Most people in the military don't make a lot of money, but it's because we never see the the money that goes to pay our health care.

I'll read the rest of the thread while I'm at work. Cheers.

I thank you for your service....and was not making light of the job you folks in the armed forces do.....or the sacrifices you and your families make......

It just seems like it is not even an option for most people these days......

I pay dearly for my healthcare insurance as well......

Of course you rarely get sick.......you are most likely in good shape......probably not smoking crack on the weekends......weed on the weekdays....and drinking beer in between.....trying to be a burden to your fellow man.....

 

[ghostntheshell]

Hmmm. Interesting discussions here...

Evil D : If you don't live here - and actually use our health care - then I don't think you actually have the full view of the system. You can say that our system is horrible - You can tell me all the stories in the world about people you know with bad experiences - I have personally had great experiences - as I had listed briefly, that involved me and my family.

The bottom line is that Canadians live longer than Americans because of our health care. It's a fact that one can't argue away.


As for the statement as the WHY Canadians pay more for beer - it's not just beer. Wait until you see what they charge us for cars! It boggles the mind! Everything is more expensive here.
On that note : Canadians have less debt than Americans, per household. Not sure HOW - but we manage

Kaboom : Our system is NOT perfect. I agree that if you are a drunk, if you abuse drugs, if you are injured as a result of committing a crime - then why should I be paying for your health care with my hard earned money?
I have always thought that maybe I should have been born in America because I really support the American view on personal property and the punishment of criminals. I like their stance on a lot of world issues (not all - but who really does support them all?). I support the armed forces.

I guess it's just a mindset as a Canadian that I feel people have the right to health care as well as education. It gives people a fair chance to achieve the bigger things in life.

I don't think people deserve nice cars. I don't think people deserve the same high paying jobs. I don't think we should have to bend over backwards to appease other cultures (such as not singing our national anthem in fear of offending some idiot).

I just support free health care and education to give people the foundation to become a useful contributer to society.

After that - your on your own.
________
2007 Lexus Cup specifications

 

[kaboom]

Hmmm. Interesting discussions here...

Evil D : If you don't live here - and actually use our health care - then I don't think you actually have the full view of the system. You can say that our system is horrible - You can tell me all the stories in the world about people you know with bad experiences - I have personally had great experiences - as I had listed briefly, that involved me and my family.

The bottom line is that Canadians live longer than Americans because of our health care. It's a fact that one can't argue away.


As for the statement as the WHY Canadians pay more for beer - it's not just beer. Wait until you see what they charge us for cars! It boggles the mind! Everything is more expensive here.
On that note : Canadians have less debt than Americans, per household. Not sure HOW - but we manage

Kaboom : Our system is NOT perfect. I agree that if you are a drunk, if you abuse drugs, if you are injured as a result of committing a crime - then why should I be paying for your health care with my hard earned money?
I have always thought that maybe I should have been born in America because I really support the American view on personal property and the punishment of criminals. I like their stance on a lot of world issues (not all - but who really does support them all?). I support the armed forces.

I guess it's just a mindset as a Canadian that I feel people have the right to health care as well as education. It gives people a fair chance to achieve the bigger things in life.

I don't think people deserve nice cars. I don't think people deserve the same high paying jobs. I don't think we should have to bend over backwards to appease other cultures (such as not singing our national anthem in fear of offending some idiot).

I just support free health care and education to give people the foundation to become a useful contributer to society.

After that - your on your own.

Wow....well said.....if the system worked as you describe I would be all for it....

But it won't.....

As for anything being a RIGHT in the US.....

We have the Bill of Rights......it does not say anything about health care.....

It protects my guns tho:biglaugh:

......The politicians keep trying to rewrite The Constitution and Bill of Rights......hopefully they never will....They sure trample it tho:damn angry:

As with anything else there is good and bad.....I think both sides have represented well here.....

The thought of free and universal health care is very compelling........

Unfortunately.....I, and others, know all too well that the Federal Government of the USA cannot manage a system that would remain functional and viable....

Greed, corruption, and, worst of all, political issues and personal agendas always enter into government run systems.....people will always fall through the cracks......and others will abuse the system......

Another thought......if we have free health care.....is my employer going to give me the cash they currently spend for my health care?????I doubt it.......

I do try to help people......volunteer fire/ems for 20 years and still active......

But people need to help themselves.....sometimes you just get dealt a shitty hand........suck it up and play the cards......

 

[ghostntheshell]

Yeah. I agree with the corruption factor.

Here in Ontario they attempted to organize our existing medical records and whatnot into an online database to ease the sharing of information and expedite our medical processes with the instant sharing of organized, up to date, medical records - with the perks of increased communication between all of the doctors and specialists.....


You know what happened?


Our Premiere (head honcho for the entire province) hired his friends to do the job. People were charging hundreds of dollars per hour to do small ridiculous tasks, expensing everything and everything.

Essentially squandered millions of our tax dollars away.


I suppose I support the "idea" of health care - and the opportunity to do it right.



But as you said so well, greed corruption and personal agendas always get in the way.



btw - you folks better hold onto your right to bear arms - as that's the one things your government always has in the back of their minds



Nice conversation folks.
________
marijuana indica

 

[[email protected]]

I've typed about 5 responses to this thread, then deleted them, LOL. As you say ghost, the "idea" is great.

The reality of the idea, once passed thru the hands of the US gov't would most likely become a far cry from what all had envisioned from day one. The bill is HUNDREDS of pages long with so much hidden away in it that will change so much. Most of it for the worst IMO.

My health insurance premiums keep escalating. They are taken from my paycheck before I even get to see it. I currently have over $200 taken from each paycheck. That is over $5200/year in health insurance. Not to mention the additional costs in co-pays for EVERTHING. office visits, scripts, lab fees, etc. And I supposedly have GOOD insurance.

Altho, for some reason I feel like I'm better off with this f'ed up system we have now than what they are trying to do and make it "universal"

 

[Thevmaxrider]

I was going to stay out of this conversation, but as someone who has lived under both health care systems I figured I may be one of the few here who can truly compare both systems.

First off let me say that I am currently paying way more for health care here in Canada than I ever did in the U.S. Between the extreme tax rate and the Health Care "premium", they wouldnt call it what it is, a tax, because that would break a no tax increase promise, I pay over double and maybe triple what my insurance rates were through my employer in the States. This includes co-payments and prescription dispensing fees.

It took me 5 years here to find a family Dr. so I had to go to walk in clinics exclusively until then. Assembly line medicine, but right in line with what HMO's in the US make you suffer through. The only advantage was that I had a Dr. almost immediately had a family quack in the US. My employer here provides excellent benefits, that I pay for, for my prescriptions, semi-private hospital room, etc. This is very similar in nature to what I payed for through my employer in the US.

As for wait times I have only one limited experience here in Canada when I had to wait 4 months for double knee surgery to be performed. From what I was told this was actually pretty fast and that the typical wait time has been up to 6 months. In the US I didnt have any experience that had a wait time associated with it, including seeing an orthopedic surgeon about a broken foot that only took 3 days to get me in.

Now socialized medicine does have one advantage. Everyone gets it regardless of income, just not everyone pays for it. As an upper middle class wage earner I pay a pretty hefty sum of cash each year while a low income family would pay next to nothing. Is it fair sure, equitable no. Unfortunately when you get government involved in anything like this they will screw it up.

No system is perfect and I think that a hybrid of the two might be the best way to go. Here in Canada there is resistance to what they see as a two tier system, but I think it would work much better by giving a person the option to go to a private facility that they pay for vs the government payed for institution.

Of course this is all just my opinion.

 

[EvilD]

Hmmm. Interesting discussions here...

Evil D : If you don't live here - and actually use our health care - then I don't think you actually have the full view of the system. You can say that our system is horrible - You can tell me all the stories in the world about people you know with bad experiences - I have personally had great experiences - as I had listed briefly, that involved me and my family.

The bottom line is that Canadians live longer than Americans because of our health care. It's a fact that one can't argue away.


As for the statement as the WHY Canadians pay more for beer - it's not just beer. Wait until you see what they charge us for cars! It boggles the mind! Everything is more expensive here.
On that note : Canadians have less debt than Americans, per household. Not sure HOW - but we manage

Kaboom : Our system is NOT perfect. I agree that if you are a drunk, if you abuse drugs, if you are injured as a result of committing a crime - then why should I be paying for your health care with my hard earned money?
I have always thought that maybe I should have been born in America because I really support the American view on personal property and the punishment of criminals. I like their stance on a lot of world issues (not all - but who really does support them all?). I support the armed forces.

I guess it's just a mindset as a Canadian that I feel people have the right to health care as well as education. It gives people a fair chance to achieve the bigger things in life.

I don't think people deserve nice cars. I don't think people deserve the same high paying jobs. I don't think we should have to bend over backwards to appease other cultures (such as not singing our national anthem in fear of offending some idiot).

I just support free health care and education to give people the foundation to become a useful contributer to society.

After that - your on your own.

You live longer because you have different life styles, a lot different. How many national paid holidays do you get, you generally have a lot less stress, you air is cleaner... It is defiantly not your health care system that keeps you living longer.

And I know you pay more for everything, like i said, i have a lot of Canadian friends, about 100 or so, and they ship a lot of stuff to me and make arrangements to get it across becasue of your taxes.

 

[ghostntheshell]

Yup. Canada has it's faults.

I'd like to hear an open discussion for "health care reform" right here in Canada.
I love the idea - but there are so many ways we could improve. So many.
A good start would be eliminating the health care fraud we have going on...

With THAT eliminated - that ALONE would be such a benefit to every single Canadian citizen.

I see the Americans as having a great opportunity - but as discussed - corruption, greed, and personal agendas will ruin things as they always do.
________
Dodge Monaco

 

[ghostntheshell]

Evil D : Just a side note - I went to the states when our dollar was worth 1.10 American. I offered to buy a Pontiac G6 GXP fully loaded. I could have walked away with it for 22k. The same car in Canada is a 45 000 dollar rip off. The dealer wouldn't sell to me because I was Canadian. He shook his head with distress and told me he'd LOVE to take my money. He'd LOVE to take all of my friends money - but he'd lose his licence to sell GM products (look where THAT got GM )

I am also looking to meet a buddy from buffalo So I can order a bunch of stuff and bring it across

I have to disagree partially with a statement you made - but studies show life expectancy is directly related to the level of health care a country provides. I would say our stress levels would likely be the same. We probably get a few more holidays here and there - and yeah - outside of Toronto - our air is as sweet as sugar. We also have great water. Lot's of it too.


I realize health care isn't the ONLY factor - but it's directly related.



***PS***

I also think life expectancy has a lot to do with the portions of delicious food served in restaurants!! When I visited Arizona - I paid 8 dollars for a burger and fries - a little cheaper than what I'd pay here - and I got the biggest burger I'd ever seen with a plate of fries that were a meal in itself...

so delicious!
________
TR

 

[EvilD]

This puts it in perspective
Wish I had an illness like this, I have the best insurance.



Reason for Better Insurance
A wealthy elderly woman hospital benefactor was being shown around.
During the tour she passed a room where a male patient was
masturbating furiously.
"Oh my God" she screamed! "That is disgraceful. Why is he doing that?"
The doctor explained "Sorry you were exposed to that, but this man has
a serious condition
where his testicals rapidly fill with semen, and if he doesn't do this
5 times a day, his testicals could rupture"
"Oh, well in that case, I guess it's OK"
As they pass the next room, a male patient is laying on the bed while
a nurse performs oral sex on him.
Again, the woman screams "Oh my God. How can this be justified?"
Again, the doctor calmly explains "Same illness, better insurance"

 

[max_caper]

I was going to stay out of this conversation, but as someone who has lived under both health care systems I figured I may be one of the few here who can truly compare both systems.

First off let me say that I am currently paying way more for health care here in Canada than I ever did in the U.S. Between the extreme tax rate and the Health Care "premium", they wouldnt call it what it is, a tax, because that would break a no tax increase promise, I pay over double and maybe triple what my insurance rates were through my employer in the States. This includes co-payments and prescription dispensing fees.

It took me 5 years here to find a family Dr. so I had to go to walk in clinics exclusively until then. Assembly line medicine, but right in line with what HMO's in the US make you suffer through. The only advantage was that I had a Dr. almost immediately had a family quack in the US. My employer here provides excellent benefits, that I pay for, for my prescriptions, semi-private hospital room, etc. This is very similar in nature to what I payed for through my employer in the US.

As for wait times I have only one limited experience here in Canada when I had to wait 4 months for double knee surgery to be performed. From what I was told this was actually pretty fast and that the typical wait time has been up to 6 months. In the US I didnt have any experience that had a wait time associated with it, including seeing an orthopedic surgeon about a broken foot that only took 3 days to get me in.

Now socialized medicine does have one advantage. Everyone gets it regardless of income, just not everyone pays for it. As an upper middle class wage earner I pay a pretty hefty sum of cash each year while a low income family would pay next to nothing. Is it fair sure, equitable no. Unfortunately when you get government involved in anything like this they will screw it up.

No system is perfect and I think that a hybrid of the two might be the best way to go. Here in Canada there is resistance to what they see as a two tier system, but I think it would work much better by giving a person the option to go to a private facility that they pay for vs the government payed for institution.

Of course this is all just my opinion.

First, I never waited this long to find a family doctor..a month at most and in the same general locations.

Second, if you are going to judge our entire healthcare system, please don't use Toronto as your only example. True, TO has some of the best staff and facilities around but it's also the biggest city and immigration hub of Ontario so its system may be the most stressed.

I have seen what the Canadian healthcare system did for me and my family. My 77 year-old father waited 4 months for serious but non-emergency heart surgery (2 bypasses and 1 valve replacement). All his consults, surgery, hospital stay, and physiotherapy were covered by healthcare. He had to pay for his meds but at senior citizen rates. I had my appendix removed; no charge. My carpal tunnel surgery was free of charge and my wait time to receive surgery was 1 month. I was just checking online for what US citizens with no health coverage would pay for similar procedures and it can get quite expensive. I'll cope with 30-dollar cases of beer, pricer cars, bikes, almost everything, in lieu of the 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars I will probably spend as the old body starts to wear (further) out!

In Ontario we are seeing a similar debate going on over government-run vs private-run auto insurance. Personally, I feel like the private companies have violated us plenty over the years so why not let the govt take a turn? I'm sure the "poor" insurance companies will still be around to step in if the govt fails to do a good job.

Blaine

 

[KJShover]

The Dems have been trying to get a National ID card for years. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Just wait until Gun Control gets started again. Tie that to the National Id "Healthcard". It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to tie THAT to Socialism.

they will be doing away with the cards. :compute:

 

[ghostntheshell]

Evil D :

LOL - I'd buy THAT insurance
________
Mercedes-Benz 200 specifications

 

[medic981]

Okay, I've skimmed over what's been going on so far and I think I'm caught up. First of all, I think you guys are doing a good job of not turning this into a yelling match. Glenn Beck, like him or not, said that if you speak the truth, it will speak volumes, much more so than raising your voice. unk:

Kaboom - I took no offense about the military comment. No worries.

And I agree with Kaboom. I think that each person should be responsible for their own health care. Under the new plan, and Obama has even said it, if you want to keep your own doctor/healt care, you can. But what he doesn't say is that you will be paying for your own health care and your tax dollars will still be paying for the government health care. So you'll be paying twice.
So if I'm an American who is barely getting by, why would I want to pay twice? I would take the government health care and pocket the money I was paying for health care. This is where socialism fails. It breeds dependency on the government. Government housing is already proof of this.
And if this bill passes the way the Democrats want it to, we're entrusting the government with a $1 trillion system. They've already destroyed social security, now we're giving them more money? :bang head:

My biggest gripe about the whole things is the price we are passing down to our children. I'm already paying for my grandparents' social security, not my own. The same will happen with health care. Our children and grandchildren will be paying for us.

And if some of you want to say that I already have 'government' health care in the military, I would say it's quite different than what the new bill represents. My life is strictly regimented, something the US public wouldn't tolerate. My care is provided by other military personnel, (when I cannot provide it for myself). And I still pay for my health care. One, through the taxes that I pay, just like everyone else. And two, through my minimalistic pay. I make about between $26k and $32k, depending on deployments. My job on the civilian side makes about $100k for starters and works up to about $150k.

 

[Thevmaxrider]

First, I never waited this long to find a family doctor..a month at most and in the same general locations.

Second, if you are going to judge our entire healthcare system, please don't use Toronto as your only example. True, TO has some of the best staff and facilities around but it's also the biggest city and immigration hub of Ontario so its system may be the most stressed.

I have seen what the Canadian healthcare system did for me and my family. My 77 year-old father waited 4 months for serious but non-emergency heart surgery (2 bypasses and 1 valve replacement). All his consults, surgery, hospital stay, and physiotherapy were covered by healthcare. He had to pay for his meds but at senior citizen rates. I had my appendix removed; no charge. My carpal tunnel surgery was free of charge and my wait time to receive surgery was 1 month. I was just checking online for what US citizens with no health coverage would pay for similar procedures and it can get quite expensive. I'll cope with 30-dollar cases of beer, pricer cars, bikes, almost everything, in lieu of the 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars I will probably spend as the old body starts to wear (further) out!

In Ontario we are seeing a similar debate going on over government-run vs private-run auto insurance. Personally, I feel like the private companies have violated us plenty over the years so why not let the govt take a turn? I'm sure the "poor" insurance companies will still be around to step in if the govt fails to do a good job.

Blaine

Remember Blaine I had to move to the boonies to get a family Dr., not Toronto. I couldnt find one in the Oshawa area when I lived there. I agree that US folks with no insurance face some scary shit, but the thing you dont see in all those stats is the fact that 75% or more of those in the low income brackets get state welfare insurance or state sponsored cheap insurance. The numbers are quite skewed that you see in the media.

We will get violated by any type of govt or private insurance, no matter who administers the programs.

 

[max_caper]

Remember Blaine I had to move to the boonies to get a family Dr., not Toronto. I couldnt find one in the Oshawa area when I lived there. I agree that US folks with no insurance face some scary shit, but the thing you dont see in all those stats is the fact that 75% or more of those in the low income brackets get state welfare insurance or state sponsored cheap insurance. The numbers are quite skewed that you see in the media.

We will get violated by any type of govt or private insurance, no matter who administers the programs.

I hear you about the boonies, Jim but Kincardine was 15 minutes away from your digs and I got my family doctor in a month. Not too many villages the size of Glammis get its own physician so travelling 15 min isn't a terrble distance.

BC and Saskatchewan appear to have lower premiums. The privately owned insurance companies here in Ontario are already resorting to media tactics to scare voters into keeping them in charge and wealthy. Sounds similar to the same big business trying to keep the govt out of health care. Personally, I am willing to try alternatives before I write off something. At least if I get boned by the govt, I can help vote them out next election.


State-sponsored health care still sounds like govt health except no feds. It reminds me of OHIP in Ontario or MSI in Nova Scotia; essential procedures are covered but elective ones are not.

However, if the feds are going to dump money into a universal health care system for the whole country it makes some sense that they will want to have some say in how the money is spent. Yes, the average citizen may pay more tax for such a system; try to think of it as a federal bailout for your sick.

Blaine

 

[Thevmaxrider]

No family docs in Kincardine, had to go to Mildmay so a 40 minute drive. Heck the Dr. is from the US, came up on holidays and decided he liked the area and stayed.

You need to read the London Free Press. There is a baby here that was born with a rare disease. OHIP has decided that they will not cover the treatment needed for the baby to recover, or at least improve. Sounds a lot like they are forcing the parents to either go broke and give up on their child. Yep, socialized medicine at its best, the government will tell you what they will pay for or not. Sorry, but it isnt all roses.

 

[kaboom]

Okay, I've skimmed over what's been going on so far and I think I'm caught up. First of all, I think you guys are doing a good job of not turning this into a yelling match. Glenn Beck, like him or not, said that if you speak the truth, it will speak volumes, much more so than raising your voice. unk:

Kaboom - I took no offense about the military comment. No worries.

And I agree with Kaboom. I think that each person should be responsible for their own health care. Under the new plan, and Obama has even said it, if you want to keep your own doctor/healt care, you can. But what he doesn't say is that you will be paying for your own health care and your tax dollars will still be paying for the government health care. So you'll be paying twice.
So if I'm an American who is barely getting by, why would I want to pay twice? I would take the government health care and pocket the money I was paying for health care. This is where socialism fails. It breeds dependency on the government. Government housing is already proof of this.
And if this bill passes the way the Democrats want it to, we're entrusting the government with a $1 trillion system. They've already destroyed social security, now we're giving them more money? :bang head:

My biggest gripe about the whole things is the price we are passing down to our children. I'm already paying for my grandparents' social security, not my own. The same will happen with health care. Our children and grandchildren will be paying for us.

And if some of you want to say that I already have 'government' health care in the military, I would say it's quite different than what the new bill represents. My life is strictly regimented, something the US public wouldn't tolerate. My care is provided by other military personnel, (when I cannot provide it for myself). And I still pay for my health care. One, through the taxes that I pay, just like everyone else. And two, through my minimalistic pay. I make about between $26k and $32k, depending on deployments. My job on the civilian side makes about $100k for starters and works up to about $150k.

My civilian job pays what you are getting in the military.....and my health care benefits are almost $300.00 a month out of my check.....

My life is WAY different than a year ago when I worked for GM.....

But I am thankful for what I got,....That's for sure....

Military life is regimented for sure......I do not envy you one bit...

Until you start making $150k.......:biglaugh:

 

[max_caper]

No family docs in Kincardine, had to go to Mildmay so a 40 minute drive. Heck the Dr. is from the US, came up on holidays and decided he liked the area and stayed.

You need to read the London Free Press. There is a baby here that was born with a rare disease. OHIP has decided that they will not cover the treatment needed for the baby to recover, or at least improve. Sounds a lot like they are forcing the parents to either go broke and give up on their child. Yep, socialized medicine at its best, the government will tell you what they will pay for or not. Sorry, but it isnt all roses.

I read the article. The baby has microvillus inclusion disease which affects 1 baby for every 5,000,000. OHIP covers the standard treatment for the disease but the baby developed a liver reaction to it. The drug OHIP refuses to pay for is classified "experiemental" which most health plans also will not cover. This situation sucks and is indicative that there is no perfect world.

If you really dig deep enough you're going to find extremes which will make any country's healthcare system look bad.

Blaine